The abundant amount of discussion, here and elsewhere, that this list has sparked happily suggests we have not reached that extreme.

I wonder, though, how many others haven’t joined the debate because they are afraid of how their comments might be construed.

Mr. Sinclair can take the heat, obviously, and has done so with open arms.

But let’s also remember to let ourselves, and others, have some fun.

Long live the butch, and you, and our ability to name ourselves.

So seeing something like this (which is focused on queer women and lesbian communities even if expanded to gender benders and non-binary folks) which included a dozen trans men and only one trans woman is a dissapointing reminder of how trans men are valued more than trans women in dyke/queer women/etc spaces. Hearing about the removal of trans men (except those who personally okayed it) and the request for nominations of butch trans women, was really heartening, especially because so often trans women are considered undateable and not hot by definition in queer women's communities.

I would suppose the reason why you don't know of any butch trans women is not because we are rare, but because of our constant rejection from community. For those identifying as women, trans and butch both individually are sometimes seen as negating that identity — combining them greatly intensifies the effect and "butch trans woman" is often seen as an oxymoron. A lot of butch trans women are either quiet about their butch status or quiet about their trans status for that reason. And those who openly attend queer women's events as butch trans women often face strong negative reactions. Noteriety in queer communities, being one of the qualifications for the list, can be more difficult for butch trans women to attain, as many are still working on acceptance in queer and queer women's communities. What you need to do to overcome that is exactly what you did, remind people specifically to nominate them, and in the process making it clear that they won't be dismissed out of hand.

That said, I think I'd personally be dissapointed if the name of the list was changed. The name by itself wouldn't change the dynamics of inclusion and exclusion. Having significant inclusion of trans women on a hot butches list is really meaningful. If trans women were added to the list at the same time the list was de-gendered, well, even understanding that the presence of trans women was not the motivation for de-gendering the list, that would seem fairly insulting.

Thanks for the list which must have been hard work and taken ages. You can't please all of the people all of the time. Probably shouldn't say it- but sometimes I can't help feeling that all this gender politics is taken far too seriously a lot of the time.

It's a hot list – good on you!

BB

X

I’m sorry that some people feel the need to dissect such an awesome and time consuming project.

Your writings bring me much joy and inspiration. Thank you!

Thank you so much for including me on your list. I think it's fantastic and I for one am grateful for your site, your writing and your Hot List.

I wrote about it here: http://brenryder.com/2009/06/how-to-top-a-hot-but...

Consider my ftm partner, for example, who very VERY much still considers himself butch. Consider that his transition was not necessarily "to male," but rather more "toward male." When I told him you were considering removing trans guys from the list it really hurt his feelings. As, I imagine, some trans guys have felt hurt over the inclusion.

No one butch or trans guy or masculine identified queer occupying any space along the spectrum can really speak for "all" of the butches and trans guys, etc. I think it's important for those commenting to try to remember that just because "trans does not equal butch" might be true FOR YOU, and we honor that, it may not be true for everyone else. While complaining about having your toes stepped on you might want to watch where you're walking.

There are several factors going on here as I see it:

a) The queer complaint factor. Every single queer activist I know experiences burn out on this one. You DONATE your time and work yourself to death to produce something for the community only to be rewarded with the sensation of being pecked to death by a duck by a community of folks who were no where to be seen when you needed some help but are amazingly ever-present to critique anyone who does anything "wrong".

a1) This is not to suggest that we should not criticize or discuss these issues in our communities. It is merely to suggest that organizing something huge gives one a lot of perspective about how difficult a task that really is – and hopefully compassion for future organizers.

b) I'm sort of bummed out that all of these fine, masculine id'd folks are way more upset about being included on a list with Jenny Shimizu than being included on a list with an alleged brutal femme serial rapist. I know the femmes came looking for you on that one – and major kudos to the way you handled it, and thank you – but I didn't see so many masculine folks raising a shit storm on that. Which is a pity – because as much as masculine invisibility is a problem in the mainstream world, sexism and femme invisibility is a staggering issue in the queer world. Where are our allies at? For real?

c) Which brings me to this…….I absolutely agree with you that the After Ellen list was uber – feminine and wtf full of straight chicks to boot! However – feminine, lipstick lesbian etc…does not always = femme. Take a look at the photos in "Femmes of Power" and see how many of us you can find in that After Ellen list…… So maybe what we need to realize is that mainstream is still completely freaked by gender more than anything. And maybe we should be thinking critically about how to unite on that front while supporting each other in our own pursuit to break through the Ellen and Portia ceiling. :)

d) Thank you Sinclair. You worked your ass of trying very hard to bring some light to some well deserved people. When things fell apart you listened respectfully and did everything in your power – as far as I can tell – to make people feel heard and validated. I second your "chill out people." And I highly encourage those who are dissatisfied with your efforts to create their own projects and launch them into the world. I don't mean that in a snarky way either – it's just….if you don't like it stop whining and create something you do like. Then sit back and wait for the e-mails…..

Ok, that's a little snarky. ;)

I used to be a journalist, and am familiar with what it feels like to write a "Valentine" to a group of people you love, respect, and admire and to have members of that same group leave you truly frightening voicemails when the paper/magazine/blog comes out. "Misrepresenting other people" seems a sin in post-modernity. I felt horrible after committing it.

(Everyone mislabels other people in their head all the time. Authors/bloggers/journalists choose to do it publicly and therefore get to feel the public, collective shame about this inevitable human cognitive process, and as an occupational hazard must often write contrite retractions.)

Let's face it, we're queer and have all been painfully mislabled at some point in our lives. It hurts no matter who does it, no matter what their intentions.

When dealing with hurts associated with racism, Dr. Ken Hardy recommends looking to the consequences of the action, rather than the intentions. I really, really admire how you have owned up to the consequences of the list, i.e. some people felt hurt. (But remember also that some people felt totally validated.) Your readers KNOW you have the best intentions. Just from reading your writing here, it is so evident that you are incredibly compassionate, insightful, authentic, respectful, intelligent, creative, etc. (Of course, I am "making assumptions" about you right now. Nice assumptions. I hope.) That is why I read your blog. If I thought you were a bad person I would not read your blog.

And yes, I think the Sugarbutch Hot 100 is an awesome name for the list.

Ephraim, no man is an island. Using your rational cost benefit analysis, there's no reason why any of us would continue to affiliate with or support one another. Please recognize that, at least for older generations, you appear to be proposing an erasure of significant (if 'historical') bonds. Not everyone is going to be comfortable with that, but good luck to you.

I think this is a pretty classy revision, all told. I have learned a lot thinking more about this stuff, and wanting to be very precise about my objections. I feel like all us queers are wandering around with our busted and unreflected self images and sometimes it's easy to assume that you're being hated or erased when you're not. That said, using "butches" as a brand name doesn't really work — it's doing that erasing — I'm glad it got taken out of the title.

I think here's the thing I have really had underscored in all this: SOME trans men share history with SOME butches. Some trans men ARE a part of what would, except for their presence, be called the "queer women's community." And a lot of trans men are not. It isn't that all trans men should be left off this list, because some of them would probably want to be on it. The assumption, though, that ALL trans men are instantly the property of this other community = false, and transphobic.