To the large part of the discussion where so many people are absolute in their being right / that demonize others – and there is no room for regionalism or dialect, good faith or loving error, intelligent discourse of sharing and creating a new language without vitriol:

After decades as an out butch – I consider myself utterly neutered by what I've read. Additionally I will not attend SF Transmarch, Dyke March or even the off chance of Sunday. I started attending Fri/Sat when they first began – and now I know- if these are the minds and hearts that are behind those faces that have surrounded me in some declaration of community… I don't want to mingle there anymore. We've celebrated so many years, overlapping Trans/Dyke celebrations, joining each other's parties out of love and blind support. Here I see massive evisceration and loathing. I am retired.

Please note: no disrespect to anyone involved in this regarding any assault and or rape that you endured. It is not you that I speak of and I'd be heartbroken if any took it that way.

Thank you to the webhost for the space to make my overall comments. Moments like this always remind me of a language I read of (Greenland / Inuit?) that has 10 or 20 (?) words for snow. Lacking personal eloquence myself, I wish our language had such extensive nuance. I wish that in a process of injecting hormones- or not, having surgeries- or not, a transition of such magnitude that in the time line of our (queer, not born biologically male) people is yet so young – that a common language could be crafted patiently, over time and as a group that proclaims inclusive love – not with such jaw-dropping ugliness and the precision of a cold sharp weapon.

- Naive; and goodbye.

Yes it does, and that is how I meant it.

>>“Transmen may or may not be men”

>>This is precisely illustrative of my point. The only reason this statement >>makes any sort of sense to anyone is because people who are not men >>appropriated (i.e. STOLE) the word “transmen” from people who are; and >>they used it to mean something clearly very different, to apply to a vastly >>different set of identities and experiences, than that for which it was >>originally intended.

You're right. That this is not the way to put it, and I apologize. I am uncomfortable with the way people say "such and such identifies as x" in a way that means "we couldn't tell they're x, but we'll give them the benefit of the doubt". So I try not to do that. But, I wanted to be clear that those who identify as men, cis or trans, are men, regardless of how they present. AND that those, cis* or trans*, whose identities as men are also queer should be given the same respect. And I botched it.

But "people who are not men" are not the only ones using the word "transmen" that way.

~ hb33 ~

Well, the transguys I know don't identify as men, they identify as trans, so perhaps the range of trans experiences is broader than you are personally aware of.

Ephraim, I didn't attempt to speak for any 'group' of people, whether or not I am a 'member' of that group. I was just repeating what my transguy friends have told me about how they view their identity, hence the phrase "in my experience". Obviously not everyone feels the same way, and I certainly don't know enough trans folk to cover the entire range of experiences and attitudes, and nor did I suggest as such.

*Transmen may or may not be men. They may or may not be masculine. But they are almost always not women. And they get to decide for themselves.

*Butches may or may not be women. Sometimes they are men. But they are almost always masculine. And they get to decide for themselves.

Gender expression does not equal gender!

You wanted to showcase queer masculinity, but you called it butchness. Putting transmen (who are usually men and almost always not women) in a list of butches subordinates their sense of their own gender to your sense of their gender expression without their permission. Many transguys aren’t going to want you to do that even if you are glorifying their masculinity.

I know there are other people who aren’t strictly queer butch women on the list – like Moennig, who’s some hot and fantastic form of not-queer. In fact most of the people on that list aren’t butch in my eyes.

I want to see queer masculinity glorified the way you wanted to do it, and I loved seeing people of different genders together on the list.

And Sinclair, I know the word “butch” is as dear to your heart as it is to mine. But not all queer masculinities are butch. You list all sorts of great queerly masculine identities (andro, genderqueer, etc)…but then you subsume them under butch, where they just don’t belong.

There may not be language that quite conveys all of those hot people together, and that’s really frustrating to me.

In the meantime though, if you set out to do this again or to fix it, a suggestion:

Make sure you have a transguy on your judges’ panel if you’re going to include cis or transmen in the list (which I think you should). Someone identified as a transfag, for example, could give you great suggestions. Consider also tracking down a butch-loving-butch, who may have different tastes in masculinity from a femme.

This is precisely illustrative of my point. The only reason this statement makes any sort of sense to anyone is because people who are not men appropriated (i.e. STOLE) the word "transmen" from people who are; and they used it to mean something clearly very different, to apply to a vastly different set of identities and experiences, than that for which it was originally intended.

And, again, "queer masculinity" necessarily also includes queer cisgendered/cissexual men as well.