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	<title>Comments on: On misperceiving someone as femme or butch</title>
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	<description>The sex, gender, and relationship adventures of a kinky queer butch top</description>
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		<title>By: gender frustrations and clarifications</title>
		<link>http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/comment-page-1/#comment-2882</link>
		<dc:creator>gender frustrations and clarifications</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 20:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] haven&#8217;t been posting much of substance here since the heated discussion On Misperceiving Someone as Femme or Butch and the follow up post. This lack of posts has been intentional. I&#8217;ve been frustrated, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] haven&#8217;t been posting much of substance here since the heated discussion On Misperceiving Someone as Femme or Butch and the follow up post. This lack of posts has been intentional. I&#8217;ve been frustrated, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: On misperceiving someone as femme or butch (again)</title>
		<link>http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/comment-page-1/#comment-2739</link>
		<dc:creator>On misperceiving someone as femme or butch (again)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 03:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Et Cetera               var sc_project=3338235; var sc_invisible=0; var sc_partition=36; var sc_security=&quot;b5e0127e&quot;; var sc_text=2;   since Jan 08.   Enter your email address to get Sugarbutch delivered to your email inbox   Subscribe via RSS  Sugarbutch comments via RSS      &#8592; On misperceiving someone as femme or butch [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Et Cetera               var sc_project=3338235; var sc_invisible=0; var sc_partition=36; var sc_security=&#8221;b5e0127e&#8221;; var sc_text=2;   since Jan 08.   Enter your email address to get Sugarbutch delivered to your email inbox   Subscribe via RSS  Sugarbutch comments via RSS      &larr; On misperceiving someone as femme or butch [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Essin&#039; Em</title>
		<link>http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/comment-page-1/#comment-2740</link>
		<dc:creator>Essin&#039; Em</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 00:23:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/#comment-2740</guid>
		<description>Wonderfully written. 
 
I do like that you pointed out that these are loaded words.  Two years ago, I would have been confused (although not upset) at being called a &quot;Femme&quot; (for me personally, it is capitalize, as compared to being femme), because I associated Femme with the social construction of feminine (I have a post on this somewhere, when I came out as a Femme).  I didn&#039;t understand the complexity of gender and orientation identity, and would have been like &quot;what? I rarely wear lipstick and just found out what Coach is - why the hell do you think I&#039;m Femme.&quot; 
 
I feel that the words Butch and Femme are similar to other reclaimed words; queer, dyke, fag, etc.  Depending on who you are talking to, you&#039;ll get very different responses. I post a CL ad on the East Coast saying I&#039;m queer, people are like &quot;yeah, whatever.&quot; I post a CL ad in Denver saying I&#039;m queer, and I get messages (true story) that say things like &quot;you&#039;re really a homophobic man, aren&#039;t you? Don&#039;t ever use that term!&quot; and &quot;are you really a lesbian? If so, why call yourself queer?&quot; 
 
We become comfortable with terms we use ourselves, or that people we care about use.  Goodness knows I&#039;m fine with the term Genderqueer (mostly because of J), yet 95% of the people I talk to have no clue what it means, even after I attempt to explain it. 
 
So yes, I agree. Butch/Femme/etc are not bad things to be called, but when someone tells your your identity is something other than it is (like when people call me straight or bi, or tell you you&#039;re not really butch enough...or when someone is called a Femme when they really aren&#039;t), it can be hard to take. 
 
Besides, we know all Femmes are pillow princesses...and who the hell would like to be that ;)? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderfully written.</p>
<p>I do like that you pointed out that these are loaded words.  Two years ago, I would have been confused (although not upset) at being called a &quot;Femme&quot; (for me personally, it is capitalize, as compared to being femme), because I associated Femme with the social construction of feminine (I have a post on this somewhere, when I came out as a Femme).  I didn&#039;t understand the complexity of gender and orientation identity, and would have been like &quot;what? I rarely wear lipstick and just found out what Coach is &#8211; why the hell do you think I&#039;m Femme.&quot;</p>
<p>I feel that the words Butch and Femme are similar to other reclaimed words; queer, dyke, fag, etc.  Depending on who you are talking to, you&#039;ll get very different responses. I post a CL ad on the East Coast saying I&#039;m queer, people are like &quot;yeah, whatever.&quot; I post a CL ad in Denver saying I&#039;m queer, and I get messages (true story) that say things like &quot;you&#039;re really a homophobic man, aren&#039;t you? Don&#039;t ever use that term!&quot; and &quot;are you really a lesbian? If so, why call yourself queer?&quot;</p>
<p>We become comfortable with terms we use ourselves, or that people we care about use.  Goodness knows I&#039;m fine with the term Genderqueer (mostly because of J), yet 95% of the people I talk to have no clue what it means, even after I attempt to explain it.</p>
<p>So yes, I agree. Butch/Femme/etc are not bad things to be called, but when someone tells your your identity is something other than it is (like when people call me straight or bi, or tell you you&#039;re not really butch enough&#8230;or when someone is called a Femme when they really aren&#039;t), it can be hard to take.</p>
<p>Besides, we know all Femmes are pillow princesses&#8230;and who the hell would like to be that ;)?</p>
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		<title>By: Miss Molly</title>
		<link>http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/comment-page-1/#comment-2738</link>
		<dc:creator>Miss Molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 22:13:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/#comment-2738</guid>
		<description>Interesting stuff here.  I&#039;d also like to point out that the terms butch and femme are often used in a way that implies more than identity, namely who it&#039;s expected the person in question is interested in dating.  If I&#039;m &quot;butch&quot;, it&#039;s often assumed I want to date &quot;femmes&quot;.  If I&#039;m &quot;femme&quot; it&#039;s assumed I&#039;m not the one wearing the strap on, that my butch will do it for me, etc.    
 
My point is, I think many people, my femmey self included, that don&#039;t like being categorized into one of these two labels, don&#039;t like the male female sexist stereotypes that go along with them.  I get that these words mean much more than that, but a lot of people in the queer community don&#039;t understand that. 
 
As much as we&#039;d like to say there aren&#039;t different rules in the queer community for butches and femmes, there are many of the double standards that exist for straight men and women.  These can feel very limiting and demeaning. 
 
Overall, I think we should respect how people identify.  I love your butch identity.  I miss old school butches.  But everyone has a right to be offended by what feels uncomfortable for them, even if it&#039;s what happens to be precious to you.  Those anti-label folks have just as much validity as anyone. 
 
[&lt;em&gt;Of course the anti-label folks have just as much validity as anyone - and of course, it can be offensive when people call me something that is not me, regardless of what that is (butch, femme, not butch, not femme, a jerk, a sexist pig, not a feminist - anything). That should&#039;ve been my point #1, right out of the gate, and I&#039;m sorry to have skipped it. - ss]&lt;/em&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting stuff here.  I&#039;d also like to point out that the terms butch and femme are often used in a way that implies more than identity, namely who it&#039;s expected the person in question is interested in dating.  If I&#039;m &quot;butch&quot;, it&#039;s often assumed I want to date &quot;femmes&quot;.  If I&#039;m &quot;femme&quot; it&#039;s assumed I&#039;m not the one wearing the strap on, that my butch will do it for me, etc.   </p>
<p>My point is, I think many people, my femmey self included, that don&#039;t like being categorized into one of these two labels, don&#039;t like the male female sexist stereotypes that go along with them.  I get that these words mean much more than that, but a lot of people in the queer community don&#039;t understand that.</p>
<p>As much as we&#039;d like to say there aren&#039;t different rules in the queer community for butches and femmes, there are many of the double standards that exist for straight men and women.  These can feel very limiting and demeaning.</p>
<p>Overall, I think we should respect how people identify.  I love your butch identity.  I miss old school butches.  But everyone has a right to be offended by what feels uncomfortable for them, even if it&#039;s what happens to be precious to you.  Those anti-label folks have just as much validity as anyone.</p>
<p>[<em>Of course the anti-label folks have just as much validity as anyone - and of course, it can be offensive when people call me something that is not me, regardless of what that is (butch, femme, not butch, not femme, a jerk, a sexist pig, not a feminist - anything). That should&#039;ve been my point #1, right out of the gate, and I&#039;m sorry to have skipped it. - ss]</em></p>
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		<title>By: Daisy</title>
		<link>http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/comment-page-1/#comment-2737</link>
		<dc:creator>Daisy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 21:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/#comment-2737</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think this post is very fair. 
 
Everything you say is true, but the reverse is true, too, which renders it sort of meaningless. When someone tells you you&#039;re not butch, it&#039;s about them and their worldview, not you or yours, yet it bothers your (well, I&#039;m guessing it bothers you, based on your first paragraph). Since I&#039;m &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; butch or femme, isn&#039;t it just as fair for me too feel upset and misunderstood when someone mislabels me? I, too, have spent some time flat-out stating my gender identity as neither butch nor femme, and people have ignored me, too. Similarly: 
 
&lt;i&gt;My gender-activisty self gets my boxers in a twist, because being called femme or butch is NOT AN INSULT.&lt;/i&gt; 
 
Definitely not, but neither is being called not butch or not femme, right? So why feel upset when someone does that? Because they&#039;re wrong, because it&#039;s not you -- they&#039;ve misunderstood you, possibly willfully, and that hurts. 
 
I have no doubt there are some folks out their who consider the words insulting (just like some people consider &quot;gay&quot; to be insulting), but for me (and others too, I&#039;d wager), the frustration I feel at getting labeled that way is result of the simple truth that I don&#039;t feel butch or femme; I&#039;m &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; butch or femme. My not-butch, not-femme identity is as emotional and intrinsic as anyone&#039;s butch or femme identity is, and I spend a similar amount of time carefully crafting my appearance to reflect that. It feels bad to me when someone calls me butch (or femme, though that very rarely happens) not because I think there&#039;s anything wrong with being butch or femme, but because it&#039;s not me -- I feel like the person saying that doesn&#039;t understand me, and like I&#039;ve failed at gender expression. I&#039;d imagine this is similar to how a butch person would feel if someone told her she were femme, or not butch. It&#039;s the same thing. 
 
&lt;i&gt;We severely lack language to describe gender, and since we largely perceive gender to be a spectrum of masculine/feminine, butch/femme, male/female, calling someone femme or butch is simply an adjective - a way to describe which side of the binary gender scale they are perceived to fall on.&lt;/i&gt; 
 
Yeah, but it can hurt my feelings when someone&#039;s perception of me doesn&#039;t match my inner sense of myself, just like it can hurt a butch or femme person, or a trans person.  
 
When someone perceives and labels me as femme or butch, it feels like getting my heart stepped on the same way it does when someone perceives and labels me as straight. That sick, sinking feeling I get when out with a male friend and someone treats us as a couple, or out with my girlfriend and people assume we&#039;re just friends -- not because there&#039;s anything wrong with being straight, but because &lt;b&gt;it&#039;s not me&lt;/b&gt;. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#039;t think this post is very fair.</p>
<p>Everything you say is true, but the reverse is true, too, which renders it sort of meaningless. When someone tells you you&#039;re not butch, it&#039;s about them and their worldview, not you or yours, yet it bothers your (well, I&#039;m guessing it bothers you, based on your first paragraph). Since I&#039;m <b>not</b> butch or femme, isn&#039;t it just as fair for me too feel upset and misunderstood when someone mislabels me? I, too, have spent some time flat-out stating my gender identity as neither butch nor femme, and people have ignored me, too. Similarly:</p>
<p><i>My gender-activisty self gets my boxers in a twist, because being called femme or butch is NOT AN INSULT.</i></p>
<p>Definitely not, but neither is being called not butch or not femme, right? So why feel upset when someone does that? Because they&#039;re wrong, because it&#039;s not you &#8212; they&#039;ve misunderstood you, possibly willfully, and that hurts.</p>
<p>I have no doubt there are some folks out their who consider the words insulting (just like some people consider &quot;gay&quot; to be insulting), but for me (and others too, I&#039;d wager), the frustration I feel at getting labeled that way is result of the simple truth that I don&#039;t feel butch or femme; I&#039;m <b>not</b> butch or femme. My not-butch, not-femme identity is as emotional and intrinsic as anyone&#039;s butch or femme identity is, and I spend a similar amount of time carefully crafting my appearance to reflect that. It feels bad to me when someone calls me butch (or femme, though that very rarely happens) not because I think there&#039;s anything wrong with being butch or femme, but because it&#039;s not me &#8212; I feel like the person saying that doesn&#039;t understand me, and like I&#039;ve failed at gender expression. I&#039;d imagine this is similar to how a butch person would feel if someone told her she were femme, or not butch. It&#039;s the same thing.</p>
<p><i>We severely lack language to describe gender, and since we largely perceive gender to be a spectrum of masculine/feminine, butch/femme, male/female, calling someone femme or butch is simply an adjective &#8211; a way to describe which side of the binary gender scale they are perceived to fall on.</i></p>
<p>Yeah, but it can hurt my feelings when someone&#039;s perception of me doesn&#039;t match my inner sense of myself, just like it can hurt a butch or femme person, or a trans person. </p>
<p>When someone perceives and labels me as femme or butch, it feels like getting my heart stepped on the same way it does when someone perceives and labels me as straight. That sick, sinking feeling I get when out with a male friend and someone treats us as a couple, or out with my girlfriend and people assume we&#039;re just friends &#8212; not because there&#039;s anything wrong with being straight, but because <b>it&#039;s not me</b>.</p>
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		<title>By: j</title>
		<link>http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/comment-page-1/#comment-2736</link>
		<dc:creator>j</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 20:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/#comment-2736</guid>
		<description>Very very thoughtful, and accurate post. As a masculine woman who is married to a self identified  femme woman I often am perceived as butch, and I&#039;m generally fine with that - what I&#039;m not fine with is people who perceive me that way and then don&#039;t accept my &quot;non-butchness&quot; for lack of a better term.  
 
There are many who for whatever reason think that because my wife is femme then I MUST be butch, because really, what is a femme without one.  We&#039;ve both had some interesting conversations around that school of thought - while I certainly realize that there are similarities between how I present and some butch identities and how we are &quot;seen&quot; by the world, inside I know there is a world of difference. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very very thoughtful, and accurate post. As a masculine woman who is married to a self identified  femme woman I often am perceived as butch, and I&#039;m generally fine with that &#8211; what I&#039;m not fine with is people who perceive me that way and then don&#039;t accept my &quot;non-butchness&quot; for lack of a better term. </p>
<p>There are many who for whatever reason think that because my wife is femme then I MUST be butch, because really, what is a femme without one.  We&#039;ve both had some interesting conversations around that school of thought &#8211; while I certainly realize that there are similarities between how I present and some butch identities and how we are &quot;seen&quot; by the world, inside I know there is a world of difference.</p>
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		<title>By: SuSu</title>
		<link>http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/comment-page-1/#comment-2729</link>
		<dc:creator>SuSu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 18:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/#comment-2729</guid>
		<description>Wow! Keep this up and you will have to quit your day job. 
You do write the best blog.  
Thoughtful, clear, and concise. Write a book. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow! Keep this up and you will have to quit your day job.</p>
<p>You do write the best blog. </p>
<p>Thoughtful, clear, and concise. Write a book.</p>
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		<title>By: lady brett</title>
		<link>http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/comment-page-1/#comment-2727</link>
		<dc:creator>lady brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 17:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/#comment-2727</guid>
		<description>#3 gets a big hell yeah from me!  one of the things i love about this distinction is that the adjective someone uses to describe you doesn&#039;t (have to) have any effect on the identity you hold.  in this vein, i love it when friends or lovers say, &quot;look at you being butch,&quot; because it is a total validation of the fact that i &lt;i&gt;am&lt;/i&gt; femme (identity) even if what i&#039;m doing/wearing/etc. is &quot;butch&quot; (adjective).  yes, in some ways using butch or femme as adjectives is very gender stereotyped, but i think it allows a range of usage that really musses up that simplicity.  (now, i can also see where this would piss some people off &#039;cause it&#039;s a little like being patted on the head and told you&#039;re cute, but i kinda like that.) 
 
which leads me to my second point - as the title says, if it &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt; piss you off, it&#039;s probably a matter of misperception. so, please, tell me. give me the chance to fix it before you get offended. because, while i might incorrectly call you butch, femme, whatever, i won&#039;t do it a second time if you say so. also, mind, if i don&#039;t know how you identify, i am definitely using those terms as adjectives. 
 
also, sinclair, i love you for saying &quot;gets my boxers in a twist.&quot; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#3 gets a big hell yeah from me!  one of the things i love about this distinction is that the adjective someone uses to describe you doesn&#039;t (have to) have any effect on the identity you hold.  in this vein, i love it when friends or lovers say, &quot;look at you being butch,&quot; because it is a total validation of the fact that i <i>am</i> femme (identity) even if what i&#039;m doing/wearing/etc. is &quot;butch&quot; (adjective).  yes, in some ways using butch or femme as adjectives is very gender stereotyped, but i think it allows a range of usage that really musses up that simplicity.  (now, i can also see where this would piss some people off &#039;cause it&#039;s a little like being patted on the head and told you&#039;re cute, but i kinda like that.)</p>
<p>which leads me to my second point &#8211; as the title says, if it <i>does</i> piss you off, it&#039;s probably a matter of misperception. so, please, tell me. give me the chance to fix it before you get offended. because, while i might incorrectly call you butch, femme, whatever, i won&#039;t do it a second time if you say so. also, mind, if i don&#039;t know how you identify, i am definitely using those terms as adjectives.</p>
<p>also, sinclair, i love you for saying &quot;gets my boxers in a twist.&quot;</p>
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		<title>By: jesse james</title>
		<link>http://www.sugarbutch.net/2008/05/on-misperceiving-someone-as-femme-or-butch/comment-page-1/#comment-2725</link>
		<dc:creator>jesse james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 15:45:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I really like and appreciate your division between identity and adjective. It clears things up for me in a productive way. But I don&#039;t think it&#039;s that easy (for me) to just move on when someone, regardless of negative or positive intention, is attempting to name me for me. Actually, it&#039;s even more complicated (for me) when it isn&#039;t meant as an insult, but as an identity tag on my person- that I don&#039;t claim. That&#039;s where I get stuck. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like and appreciate your division between identity and adjective. It clears things up for me in a productive way. But I don&#039;t think it&#039;s that easy (for me) to just move on when someone, regardless of negative or positive intention, is attempting to name me for me. Actually, it&#039;s even more complicated (for me) when it isn&#039;t meant as an insult, but as an identity tag on my person- that I don&#039;t claim. That&#039;s where I get stuck.</p>
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