I agree that the trans issue makes it harder to deal with these issues; I had a boss once who identified as a lesbian her whole life and then her beloved partner underwent gender reassignment surgery. It was (and is) really hard for her to deal with her perceived 'straightness', and I would concede the argument that they were 'passing' in a whole new way because of the surgery. So while you could claim that she was somehow 'less gay' than she once had been, at least outwardly, there is no similar reasonable argument for a femme who digs butches. I am totally not straight, and my dream woman is definitely a butch! And ditto the thanks for providing a space for us to hash this out.

When I came out six years ago, I thought I was a total femme and my partner was a femme. Now that I'm single again, I find butches SOOOOOOO hot. (not sure where I am on the spectrum)

What has changed?? Only my ability to be more open to the b/f dynamic wherever I find it.

“There’s so often a snobbery in queer women who feel they’ve transcended the societal expectations placed on them by rejecting femininity”

so…you’re expressing your enlightenment by rejecting what society expects of you as a woman in favor of what society expects of you as a dyke? (alternately viewed, rejecting what hetero-society expects for what queer-society expects.) go right ahead (’cause i totally dig that look), but please don’t pretend it makes you “better,” i’ve already said what i think of that.

“butch/femme is alienating to me! i feel weird about it! it feels a little politically suspect!”

“but i find it empowering and hot! i feel great about it!”

It’s frustrating to me because the one is not a response to the other. I admit it: don’t think there is anything inherently subversive about the butch/femme paradigm. Hot, sure, sexy, sure, but I don’t think it get subversive just because it is two women playing with masculine/feminine relations. Is any queer sex subversive? Is any queer gender dynamic subversive? I don’t think so. How is it more subversive to joke about needing a butch to kill a mouse than it is to joke about needing a man to kill a mouse?

I think it is possible to say this without hierarchizing queerness or calling someone out as more or less queer.

This doesn’t mean finding yourself as a femme or a butch or anything else is not empowering. Of *COURSE* it is empowering to find something that makes you feel hot and sexy. Of course it is empowering to find something that makes sense on your body.

But that doesn’t make it subversive, and it doesn’t mean it works for everyone. I get annoyed by that shit about “pamper your femme! rub your butch’s tired strong muscles!” and I say this as someone who has identified very intensely with that gender dynamic. Butch/femme is not heterosexual in the classic sense but sometimes it takes up a lot of room. I think part of this is because it is a parallel, if a queered one, and sometimes I wonder if that parallel gives it some kind of privilege or weight. It looks, at least a little, like something we recognize from the rest of the world, even if it is a queer version thereof.

I hate how sometimes some people who identify with these communities cast everyone in that light — “oh, she’s butch, but she likes to wear dangly earrings because she’s conflicted about being butch.” Maybe she’s not butch. Maybe she is conflicted about the difference between how she sees herself and how other people react to her and is trying to find a way of putting it together that makes sense.

Not everyone finds their gender so quickly or within an aesthetic that has a name. Not everyone has a single coherent experience of themselves. Nothing is without its problematics and just because something is hot for you does not make it above criticism.

This is probably incendiary, especially on this blog, and I know I am in part talking out of my own ongoing frustrations and complications with the butch/femme world. And I know that part of those complications come from me looking at “femme” and looking at “butch” and saying “woah, I don’t fit neatly in either of these things. Where does that leave me? How do I problematize this system?”

If the response to that is “screw you, bonehead,” I tell you what: you’re definitely not part of any revolution I am interested in.

this post I was talking about, which Sinclair may expand upon later, was doing things like equating "masculiney" women to men, and said in the butch-femme dynamic one is "forced to choose a role."

for me, that definition was very liberating, and I wasn't forced to choose it. and I was femme before I put on the skirt and heels, don't get me wrong. as it turns out, that part wasn't necessary for my identity, though it's certainly fun. "femme is in the fucking," I'm fond of saying.

I also didn't mean to boil my ex's conflict with her masculinity down to gender-stereotyped accessories. I just meant to underscore that she was conflicted about the things I liked most about her, which put me in an uncertain position. I don't want to force anyone into a role either, so I took care to look for a self-identified butch the next time.

I understand how butch-femme identity can be oppressive to those who don't fit neatly into categories, but that doesn't invalidate them for people like me, or mean that I am out to oppress those people myself. To each their own. I just want to be respected as being as queer as everyone else, even though at first glance I might not be visibly so.

I remember sitting at a picnic with a bunch of lesbian friends, and they were going around the circle talking about "their type." the majority there liked femmes, and were femmes themselves. when it got to me, I said "butches," and I was instantly on the outside. "really?" said one. "but it's the person who matters, right?" another asked, "you mean, like, a tomboy? a sporty dyke?" and I affirmed "no, butches just do it for me. what can I say?" but it was not a popular orientation, and I could see the wheels turning as people considered whether I was "really" gay, or some kind of heteronormative pseudo-gay faker. and the butch femme community hears quite a bit of that type of reaction.

to those people, I certainly don't mean to say "screw you, boneheads." but maybe the typical arguments against about butch-femme are a bit oversimplified, and we could all be more tolerant of others orientations, kinks, and experiences as being as valid as our own.

Coming out as femme has been a long process for me as well. Thanks for the validation. It's like the statement in an earlier post – I feel like I make more sense when I'm on the arm of my butch. My visibility and queerness are not questioned. My femininity is celebrated instead of mocked and the strait men get the picture – this is not for you. It gets more difficult navigating those streets alone sometimes, but some serious attitude will take you far in situations such as those. Rock it darlin'!

That's what I'm talkin about — you know, reading this made me feel a bit better because I've often felt embarrassed that I was not "femme" enough – but completely WANTING to be!

Thanks for writing/posting this!